Curse

AtomicMew · Aug 18, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

And whats the sole reason why people play togther for the UWSC?

Stop right there. People playing together has nothing to do with the statement which you quoted me. Please re-read.

Commander Kanen · Aug 18, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Fingers Crossed they will.

Coney · Aug 18, 2009, 11:31 PM // 23:31

It's about time they nerfed the perma crap... For too many reasons to mention.

Targren · Aug 19, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

But SF seems to just kill everything and therefor there's no reason to use a different build.

There are many different SF builds just like there are many different 55/105 builds.

Coverticus · Aug 19, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Okay, I have tried to be pragmatic with my viewpoints on Shadow Form and the likes. Sit in the middle as it were.

But

In my travels on working on my survivor, I ended up in Doomlore American District One. To be confronted with an explosion of messaging in Local Chat:

Running UW (Survivors, Spider Cap etc) 28k/7 ecto
Running Duncan 20k/5 ecto
Running Bogroots
Running Slavers
Running This
Running That
Running Timbuk-flipping-too 100k yadeyah
A/Mo LF SoOSC
GLF A/P SoOSC
Forming Kathandrax Sinway - need......

Seeing that some of these certain team builds have just appeared on Pvx over the last few days/weeks, this is now stupid. Just...stupid. Now that the masses (PuGs) are out and playing with this, it just has to be a matter of time before ANet has to pull the plug on this. One skill cannot rule the entire frigging game, as it is at the moment (I never quite appreciated the volumes going on until now tbh).

Apologies if some of this is old news (likely) but it's rapidly becoming Assassin Wars: Daggers of the North and not Guild Wars.

(I also kinda felt sorry for the poor little monk posting "Running CoF 2k" in the middle of all that spam too).

UnChosen · Aug 19, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Jim

Okay, I have tried to be pragmatic with my viewpoints on Shadow Form and the likes. Sit in the middle as it were.

But

In my travels on working on my survivor, I ended up in Doomlore American District One. To be confronted with an explosion of messaging in Local Chat:

Running UW (Survivors, Spider Cap etc) 28k/7 ecto
Running Duncan 20k/5 ecto
Running Bogroots
Running Slavers
Running This
Running That
Running Timbuk-flipping-too 100k yadeyah
A/Mo LF SoOSC
GLF A/P SoOSC
Forming Kathandrax Sinway - need......

Seeing that some of these certain team builds have just appeared on Pvx over the last few days/weeks, this is now stupid. Just...stupid. Now that the masses (PuGs) are out and playing with this, it just has to be a matter of time before ANet has to pull the plug on this. One skill cannot rule the entire frigging game, as it is at the moment (I never quite appreciated the volumes going on until now tbh).

Apologies if some of this is old news (likely) but it's rapidly becoming Assassin Wars: Daggers of the North and not Guild Wars.

(I also kinda felt sorry for the poor little monk posting "Running CoF 2k" in the middle of all that spam too).

Dungeon runs are mostly done with 600/smite...perma either can't run them or can't do it effectively without a whole team of them. Consumables are also required for effective "sinway" clearing....all those people doing dungeon perma speed clears are essentially draining their time and income (for consumables) for an extremely small chance of getting the end chest rare items. Unlike the UWSC dungeon speed clears generally don't generate a profit for those people, the time spent continously farming and paying for consumables usually out weighs the benefit. People I know only do them because they want to "get their own rare item" rather than pay for one even though its cheaper to just buy it.

The real problems is that those dungeons have ZERO incentives for people to do them normally. Long and stressful, shit drop, and completely unfriendly to pugs with all the artificial stat pump monsters, crazy boss that need specific planing and traps everywhere. Those people that get runs are not pugs being lazy, its people that literally gave up on pugging those areas thanks to the design. Nerfing SF and 600Smite would do nothing except just turn doomlore into an empty outpost just like what the Ursan nerf did to DoA....but in this case it cannot be justified because dungeons are NOT end game areas. (Or if they are...the rewards are totally not proportionate to the difficulty)

kazjun · Aug 19, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The real problems is that those dungeons have ZERO incentives for people to do them normally. Long and stressful, shit drop, and completely unfriendly to pugs with all the artificial stat pump monsters, crazy boss that need specific planing and traps everywhere. Those people that get runs are not pugs being lazy, its people that literally gave up on pugging those areas thanks to the design. Nerfing SF and 600Smite would do nothing except just turn doomlore into an empty outpost just like what the Ursan nerf did to DoA....but in this case it cannot be justified because dungeons are NOT end game areas. (Or if they are...the rewards are totally not proportionate to the difficulty)

QFT. I H/H frostmaws HM, and do you know what I got for it? Two diamonds and a pick. I had to lol. Filled my book, got my masters of the north points and I've never returned. Same with pretty much every other dungeon. Except maybe duncan's. A guarenteed hero armour is probably the best thing I've ever gotten from a dungeon chest.Though I got to say that frostmaws is actually a lot easier than say forgewright or kathandrax, just cause H/H's are crap at dodging aoe and traps.

Knowing what I do now, I'd have saved myself the effort and just got the whole lot run. As is, I filled my nm and hm books and got my master points and never set foot in a dungeon since. And I see no reason to do so in future either.

Take away runners, and I reckon the only dungeon that'll see much action are CoF (easy and close), slavers (VSF only) and HoS (nm, cause you have to do it to finish eotn). The others will only see small niche groups if any at all.

YunSooJin · Aug 19, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Take away runners, and I reckon the only dungeon that'll see much action are CoF (easy and close), slavers (VSF only) and HoS (nm, cause you have to do it to finish eotn). The others will only see small niche groups if any at all.

Yeah, so maybe something needs to be done to a game with big enough problems that people never want to go back to play content again. I don't think the answer is 'introduce invincible farmers and gimmicks'.

Tom Swift · Aug 19, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Yeah, so maybe something needs to be done to a game with big enough problems that people never want to go back to play content again. I don't think the answer is 'introduce invincible farmers and gimmicks'.

There is no "maybe" about it. I really don't care if they nerf shadow form etc. Even though I do perma farm I agree that is over powered.

But I firmly believe they have left it in place because its existence hides huge flaws in the game.

Dungeons and high end areas are such that pugs and h/h are very difficult while certain solo builds are effortless. Meanwhile the rewards and drops are so bad that even if these areas were redesigned to be only moderately difficult for groups they would not be worth wasting time on.

For this reason I doubt very much we will see a nerf to perma and other such builds. It would allow the flaws in the game to become so obvious that a huge number of people would just stop playing.

It is obvious they simply don't have the time or resources to fix such broken areas. So I doubt we will see any major nerf to any solo run ability.

Targren · Aug 19, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Of course they are. This goes for every single game in the entirety of the world: Inexperienced > experienced, always. But that doesn't mean you should make all of your games "nub friendly" from start to finish.

A good game caters to as many skill ranges as possible. This is what difficulties settings are supposed to do: provide something for the newcomer, and for the seasoned. A poorly designed game is one that caters to only one end of the spectrum, be it only to "newbies" or only to "proz".

Unfortunately, I've never seen a game successfully pull that off, much less an MMO. And practically, if you can't pull that off, you shoot for the greatest retention/repeat customer. So any solution that involves "[the majority] should just quit the game", while it might suit the higher end players like us, is a bad idea in any sort of business sense.

Bryant Again · Aug 19, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Unfortunately, I've never seen a game successfully pull that off, much less an MMO.

Then it looks like we need to get right on that, eh?

For GW, a start would be just easing up on the high-end areas in NM. This is what they started with DoA but didn't really follow through with the other higher-end areas, and it would go a long way in starting in improving PvE.

But yes, I will say that if they don't want to persue in HM that they should indeed quit the game. Not because "they're not catered for" or because "they should quit the game" but because they beat it. GW doesn't have any form of PvE endgame sans achievement/money farming, and that's not really an endgame.

Sure there could be a bit more replayability if they were a better player, but this is the same of nearly every game with multiple difficulties, going all the way back with Doom. But since it's just a reset of the game with tougher bad guys most aren't upset to be missing out on it.

Targren · Aug 19, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But yes, I will say that if they don't want to persue in HM that they should indeed quit the game. Not because "they're not catered for" or because "they should quit the game" but because they beat it. GW doesn't have any form of PvE endgame sans achievement/money farming, and that's not really an endgame.

Sure there could be a bit more replayability if they were a better player, but this is the same of nearly every game with multiple difficulties, going all the way back with Doom. But since it's just a reset of the game with tougher bad guys most aren't upset to be missing out on it.

The difference between Doom and GW is that doom is single player (IPX multiplayer mode notwithstanding. Remember that?), whereas GW has a social aspect. To give up on the game means leaving behind the socialization in it (and it does exist, at least in the good guilds), so they have an impetus to stay, but if they can't do anything, they get frustrated, take up some easy farm or something (until the QQers get it nerfbatted) or whatever. The important part, from Anet's standpoint, is to make sure they don't end up with a bad taste in their mouth, because they are the majority and Anet needs them to buy GW2. If getting a pair of monks to run them through dungeons for the last year of server-life makes them buy GW2, that's a good thing.

Again, the same position could be taken towards the hardcore players. They finished HM mode, they beat it, so they should move on to another game. Hell, I'm at that point now that I finished my GW bucket list (Monkeyman went down last night).

Bryant Again · Aug 19, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

The difference between Doom and GW is that doom is single player (IPX multiplayer mode notwithstanding. Remember that?), whereas GW has a social aspect...

You're right. So le's look at some other games that are pretty good at catering to multiple skill levels that also have a social aspect.

There's Left 4 Dead. Thousands of players with varying skill levels, and are all catered to via for the difficulty settings within the game, from ultra casual to to ultra hardcore.

Granted it's a shooter, so a bit tougher to compare to - so let's look at WoW. Way back in the day, and even with The Burning Crusade, all of WoW's endgame content could only be completed with a heavy time investment and dedication. All of the endgame raids were catered only to players with a lot more free time and skill (skill in wow, lolrite?). At the release of Wrath, things were pretty newbie friendly. Then hard modes became a bit more fine-tuned and it's becoming a bit reminiscient of the old 40man days. Now many more players are able to even see the endgame raids, while the people looking more for a challenge are also better satisfied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Again, the same position could be taken towards the hardcore players. They finished HM mode, they beat it, so they should move on to another game. Hell, I'm at that point now that I finished my GW bucket list (Monkeyman went down last night).

Precisely why both groups need to be catered to, and while it's tough the payoff is huge. Both groups have something the developers need.

Targren · Aug 19, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

so let's look at WoW. Way back in the day, and even with The Burning Crusade, all of WoW's endgame content could only be completed with a heavy time investment and dedication. All of the endgame raids were catered only to players with a lot more free time and skill (skill in wow, lolrite?). At the release of Wrath, things were pretty newbie friendly. Then hard modes became a bit more fine-tuned and it's becoming a bit reminiscient of the old 40man days. Now many more players are able to even see the endgame raids, while the people looking more for a challenge are also better satisfied.

I only have a few (statistically insignificant) friends who play WoW, but to hear them tell it, they've done precisely what you're advocating against: eased up the game to be more accessible, all the way to the end. Maybe they did it in a more balanced fashion, since said friends still play, but that may just be the addiction factor.

Quote:

Precisely why both groups need to be catered to, and while it's tough the payoff is huge. Both groups have something the developers need.

And that is the real trick, and at this point, it seems it would require a huge amount of work on Anet's part that they don't have the manpower (or inclination, I'd wager) to put into it.

Swinging the nerfbat on dungeon runs, however, does not cater to any group. Not the uber-hardcore who actually think they're fun, since they don't need to get the runs (if they can't find a group, that's an issue of their numbers, not what anyone else is doing). Not the runners. Not those buying the runs. The only concerns that are served are those of individuals who are primarily concerned with their prestigious ones-and-zeros-that-look-pretty.

Bryant Again · Aug 19, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

I only have a few (statistically insignificant) friends who play WoW, but to hear them tell it, they've done precisely what you're advocating against: eased up the game to be more accessible, all the way to the end.

As opposed to what it used to be - i.e. STRICTLY for the hardcore - it's a hell of a lot better. It's still not as challenging and rewarding as it once was, but now more and more players are actually able to step foot into the content and kill a boss in a raid.

This was WoW's fault in the beginning: Only catering to the hardcore. While their attempts to cater to both are a bit rusty, it's still great to see Blizzard take action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

The only concerns that are served are those of individuals who are primarily concerned with their prestigious ones-and-zeros-that-look-pretty.

I'm only against because I can't really see any reason not to - It's not just SF either, SF is only the most widespread (maybe?) at this point.

I'm just one who can't see the balance of allowing less than three people to do the job of 8.

Targren · Aug 20, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As opposed to what it used to be - i.e. STRICTLY for the hardcore - it's a hell of a lot better. It's still not as challenging and rewarding as it once was, but now more and more players are actually able to step foot into the content and kill a boss in a raid.

This was WoW's fault in the beginning: Only catering to the hardcore. While their attempts to cater to both are a bit rusty, it's still great to see Blizzard take action.

I agree, at least in principle (I don't like WoW). Making the high-end more accessible is preferable than making the less hardcore leave the game.

Quote:

I'm only against because I can't really see any reason not to - It's not just SF either, SF is only the most widespread (maybe?) at this point.

I'm just one who can't see the balance of allowing less than three people to do the job of 8.

Most of those don't involve SF at all. And "balance?" That word gets used a lot in this debate, but without any real contextual definition. What are you balancing between? In PvP it has a context between the two teams. So what has to be balanced in PvE? Players vs. Monsters? Good luck with that. 600/Smite or Perma are nothing compard to an extra 5 or more pips of regen, one-hit kills, and apparent immunity to environmental effects and DP. With NF and especially EotN, Anet went for the low hanging fruit of confusing "challenge" with "ridiculous stat buffs" and even more obnoxious monster skills. Balance between the classes? It'll never happen as long as there are classes. Every role for every class requires its own skillset.

So what do you mean by "balance?"

Bryant Again · Aug 20, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

So what do you mean by "balance?"

I don't want to get into specifics because I don't want this derailment to continue, but I can remind you of a few things.

We both want a better PvE. We both want PvE to be more intelligent and skillful. But we're both realistic about the situation and know that we're not going to get that for GW1.

Because of that, we both want something to happen to the current situation. But what we want is different from the other's and no amount of quote wars is going to change either opinion.

Targren · Aug 20, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I don't want to get into specifics because I don't want this derailment to continue, but I can remind you of a few things.

We both want a better PvE. We both want PvE to be more intelligent and skillful. But we're both realistic about the situation and know that we're not going to get that for GW1.

Because of that, we both want something to happen to the current situation. But what we want is different from the other's and no amount of quote wars is going to change either opinion.

I don't think it's a derailment. It's about UWSC being nerfed in the name of "balance." I wasn't asking what you meant as a challenge. You just seem to be one of the few with a stance on the issue on either side who can make a logically consistent argument, so I'm sincerely interested in your POV on the matter. If you don't want to get into it, though, that's your prerogative.

MithranArkanere · Aug 20, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

If any character with any profession and all skills can't join any team to do any thing, then that's a reason to changed, change, change and changed until it happens.

Bug John · Aug 20, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

If any character with any profession and all skills can't join any team to do any thing, then that's a reason to changed, change, change and changed until it happens.

That is already possible, it's called friends, guild, alliance, heroes and henchmen.

You don't even need the first three ones if you stay in eotn.